Does steam washing affect LSP?

[512detail]

Hey all,
Here`s the situation. I have a good friend in my car club with a very nice heavily modified 09 yellow challenger. It`s a total show car, but could be much nicer if cared for by the right guy and I really want him to see the difference quality products and methods make.

Anyways

We have been discussing either PBL, Synergy, or some other fancy nuba I have around like DoDo Supernatural on his ride.

He lives about 60 miles from me or I would be doing the normal washes on his vehicle but instead he regularly uses one of those mobile detailers who cleans with pressurized steam.
I am slightly familiar with this process as I once considered purchasing one of those steam pressure washers.

Now, I`ve never seen these guys work but I am imagining they are the ones responsible for the crazy marring all over his vehicle.
We have also discussed paint correction but I don`t want to do it if he is going to continue to use the steam guys, as I am pretty sure they are the ones marring his paint.
I`ve actually taught his 17yr old daughter proper wash methods and she says she uses them and he has good towels recommended by myself. I digress...

The question:
I`m not sure what temp or psi these steam pressure washers run at but is it possible that their steam washes could strip away any Nuba or even possibly Synergy?
The last thing I want is to put in the time and have it steamed away. I think I read somewhere that Nuba will start to fade away at like 125 degrees or something, probably have that one wrong though but I will happily hear from someone who knows more.

Please advise. I will be at the track tonight and I would like to further discuss this with him.

Thanks,
Brandt

[Stokdgs]

Brandt -

Steam at very high temps and pressure is used in about every industry that wants to clean and sanitize without chemicals.

It can strip away about anything but it all depends on the size of the machine, what you are wanting to remove, and how good you are at using it..

Once you fire it up, if you have lots of pressure, you cannot see anything you are doing.
You just go down a panel let the steam clear up and see what you did.. This just takes way too long for me...

I would want to know more about the people and their steam equipment, and how they are actually using it on his car..

I do not know anyone, Anyone, who is using steam to clean an entire exterior of a vehicle..

Unless you have a huge machine with lots of heat and pressure, it just takes too long to do this - even more so if the car is really dirty..

Are you sure they are not using a Pressure Washer with hot water ? Like at the Do it Yourself Car Wash?

I have used a steamer for years in my Shop and never really wanted to take the time to use it to clean an entire exterior of a vehicle...

While I think it might for small parts of it, its just not big enough, or has a big enough tank to go total steam over an entire exterior..

I instead use a pressure washer to get all the little crap out of moldings, lights, taillights, the entire engine compartment and insulation pad under the hood, all down the sides of the engine, etc., and it with a little APC or Degreaser as needed, really cleans the heck out of anything - without steam...

I might be inclined to tell him to let the swirl-o-matic-car-washer go, and once you correct and put down the LSP, only hand wash with much care... It will be less expensive because he wont need to get the paint corrected as often, and for sure the LSP will last longer.. (less touching especially by monkeys)

Steam certainly has its place especially in Interiors, those nasty, deep front door jambs, all A/C vents, all those deep cup holders, etc., but I will never consider doing a complete steam of an entire vehicle...

Good luck with this ! I know you will do the right thing..
Dan F

[512detail]

Thanks for the response Dan.
I spoke with him last night about this for a while and he told me that they use literal steam to clean his car. They steam the (dirty) surface and then wipe it off with a towel. He wasn`t sure if it was mf, terry, cotton or what but he said they do not use any water except for what goes inside his machine to make the steam of course. I asked him if it was pressurized hot water or steam and he said it`s not hot water but actual steam.

I just don`t see how this is safe for LSP. But I might be wrong.

I asked him about the size of the machine and he said "it`s one of those big ole steam machines he said it cost $10,000" and it fits inside his Van

I asked him if he knew how long the guy had been doing this steam cleaning service and he told me that the guy`s day job is as a produce inspector for the HEB (local grocery store chain here) and works early in the day and does this in the evenings out of a brand new Benz van. He said he has been using the guy for almost two years and he is pretty sure that is about how long the guy has been open.

Unfortunately, this guy is used by many of the people in my car club, even though I have tried to give all of them rinseless washes to try out. Each of their vehicles have lots of wash induced swirls, not saying they are all from this guy but I`d be willing to bet some are.

I asked him if this guy puts on any `wax` afterwards or any type of protection. He said the guy just comes and steams his car (takes him about 45 mins) and charges him $45.
I discussed with him the possibility that the steam cleaner guy could be leaving his yellow paint unprotected after each wash. He disagreed but seemed to take what I was talking about into consideration. So after hearing this I took an empty spray bottle in my car and put some water in it and sprayed it on his paint....pretty flat and not much beading if any- definitely didn`t look protected to me. My phone was dead or I would have taken a picture.

I let him know it would be pretty much fruitless to have anyone correct the paint until we can determine who is putting the swirls on there.

I just don`t like the idea of this wash method, not for the exterior. I have a smaller steam machine that runs at 52psi and it used for interiors but I couldn`t imagine using a larger machine for the exterior. It`s barely even powerful enough to get anything done under the engine bay.

I need to figure out at what temp `nuba could be melted off or washed away (however you want to put it) with steam, if at all possible.

[mrclean81]

The commercial truck dealership Ive worked at off and on for 6 years uses a diesel fired hot water pressure washer. While its not straight steam, it does hit temps well over 200°, and will absolutely strip traditional wax. I`ve seen sealants such as Car Brite Paint Sealant withstand multiple washes with this machine, but that`s not really surprising considering that its one of the most durable sealants to ever be produced. I`ve also seen Blackfire`s Black Ice hold up just as well, but again, that`s no surprise. A traditional wax such as Gold Class or the likes won`t last through 1 wash with water that hot. I`m gonna make an educated guess and say that steam would strip it just as easily.

[512detail]

The commercial truck dealership Ive worked at off and on for 6 years uses a diesel fired hot water pressure washer. While its not straight steam, it does hit temps well over 200°, and will absolutely strip traditional wax. I`ve seen sealants such as Car Brite Paint Sealant withstand multiple washes with this machine, but that`s not really surprising considering that its one of the most durable sealants to ever be produced. I`ve also seen Blackfire`s Black Ice hold up just as well, but again, that`s no surprise. A traditional wax such as Gold Class or the likes won`t last through 1 wash with water that hot. I`m gonna make an educated guess and say that steam would strip it just as easily.

If Black Ice holds up I suppose I can assume PBL and Synergy would as well.

[Stokdgs]

Brandt -

Thanks for the great response and information you received from the Client -

Ok, a bigger steamer/hot water producer/etc...

If you go out to about any Car Dealership in the morning, they are using something similar, to wash off all the Inventory on the Lot..

I dont know if they wipe them down, but if they are, well, you can just imagine what can happen since they dirt is is not really removed completely, and then you are wiping it down with a towel that just scrapes the dirt along the paint..

Some people just get into the mindset that this is good - we happen to think it is not..

Some people just want a quick wash at whatever level it is and dont really care what the paint looks like..

If this Client wants to really take care of his paint and keep it swirl/scratch free, he needs to not do this type of cleaning as long as they are just wiping it off after spraying it in whatever manner, wiping it down, probably with dirty towels, etc..

Its imbedded dirt that Im talking about along with the surface stuff that might not move readily with his process...

I am sure that Steam hot enough can remove anything on any surface, and if you showed him his paint is totally non protected, what more proof is needed ?

You have done about everything there is to show him, if he is dead set on this approach, then his paint will always look that way and will continue to acquire more swirls and scratches..

I did an M5 Jet Black once that was so swirled up it looked dark gray... Had no color at all... Looked awful.... I think its on my website with a few before/after...
Vehicles will get that ugly and sometimes, people just dont get it..

Good luck ! You did a great job !
Dan F

[bswombaugh]

I have seen this process demonstrated one time. I don`t know if it would remove an LSP, but I would never allow the process on any of my vehicles. From what I saw, the surfaces are steamed and just wiped down with a terry cloth or microfiber towel. There is no rinsing of any contaminants or any kind of surface lubrication that would prevent marring. Any particles left lying on the surface are just going to be ground into the paint. I can just imagine what a "soft" paint would look like after just a few of these washes.

[512detail]

I have seen this process demonstrated one time. I don`t know if it would remove an LSP, but I would never allow the process on any of my vehicles. From what I saw, the surfaces are steamed and just wiped down with a terry cloth or microfiber towel. There is no rinsing of any contaminants or any kind of surface lubrication that would prevent marring. Any particles left lying on the surface are just going to be ground into the paint. I can just imagine what a "soft" paint would look like after just a few of these washes.

My thoughts exactly

[Ronkh]

imho
wax melts w heat
steam = heat

so yep (imho) steam will degrade wax protection
but it MAY level it out some and make it shiney

[Stokdgs]

I`m remembering years ago, before this Forum was even a thought in someone`s brain, there was a big "revival" of Steam Cleaning and Steamers, etc...

Some guy was trying to open up a car wash using Steam and it went on and on...

Lots of big companies that sold Steamers got in on it and even back then, those things were in the $10k range and up... Yeah, my thoughts exactly --- Not !!!

You just cant see anything while you are doing it in the first place, so why would that be a good thing unless you want to sanitize the exterior of a car - for what reason???

I can see the reasoning - very little water on the car dealership parking lot, no need for soap, no overspray all over the car you just did, dries really fast, one quick wipedown with a towel that is black by the end of that line of cars, and you are good to go!

Anyone who has ever used one that is not of the $10k variety like mine will tell you that it does not really remove everything on the first pass or subsequent passes..

So you still have to wipe it with something and guess what happens next...

In my humble opinion, there has not been anything invented yet that can best a good careful hand wash with a super slippery soap, that is of the correct ph to hopefully not remove your LSP, and introduce defects in your paint..

I`m sticking with that...
Dan F

[512detail]

Totally agree with you Dan.
I am tempted to go watch this guy work sometime just to see his method first hand.
It still bothers me that this dude gets so much business but good for him, honestly. As it is very plausable indeed that he doesn`t know any better than his clientele.

[TacoHerder]

I could have sworn Mike wrote up an article about how steaming the exterior for your car isnt ideal. Wish I could find it. IMO if you use steam you should ONLY use steam and not wipe it off as you go. Then after steaming the car go back with a waterless wash to remove contaminants that didnt get removed. I dont see steam providing any lubricants that will prevent the dirt you are wiping off from scratching your paint.

Does anyone know how steam effects coatings like Opti-Guard?

[512detail]

The real issue here isn`t whether or not steam is a safe wash medium, I think all of us here can agree its not better than using any amount water. Even if you used a clean towel wipe every time you would still be just basically rubbing the dirt.

I`m mainly concerned with the stripping effect the steam will have on LSP. If he`s having it steamed every other week or so, regsrdless of whether or not he even uses a quick spray wax or similar product, then theoretically it could be constantly unprotected after the wash. And if he has to do spray wax or something quick every time after the steaming, well, double the chance of swirls and more unnecessary effort on his part. And even more of a chance to get ripped off by upselling, assuming this guy even offers surface protection additionally.

Even though I was able to see flat water activity on his paint, I can`t directly contribute that to the steam without some form of scientific justification.
All these guys in my club use inferior OTC products.

[bswombaugh]

The real issue here isn`t whether or not steam is a safe wash medium, I think all of us here can agree its not better than using any amount water. Even if you used a clean towel wipe every time you would still be just basically rubbing the dirt.

I`m mainly concerned with the stripping effect the steam will have on LSP. If he`s having it steamed every other week or so, regsrdless of whether or not he even uses a quick spray wax or similar product, then theoretically it could be constantly unprotected after the wash. And if he has to do spray wax or something quick every time after the steaming, well, double the chance of swirls and more unnecessary effort on his part. And even more of a chance to get ripped off by upselling, assuming this guy even offers surface protection additionally.

Even though I was able to see flat water activity on his paint, I can`t directly contribute that to the steam without some form of scientific justification.
All these guys in my club use inferior OTC products.

My understanding is that most carnuba type waxes will begin to melt around 185 degrees. The steam from a steamer will easily exceed that depending on the amount of pressure that it is under. At 15 psi the temp of steam can approach 250 degrees. A sealant would be a much better choice to use in these environments. I have heard that sealants can withstand temps up to 300 degrees