Ford Engineers - Business as Ussual

[GearHead_1]

Here is a link to more about this like I said it is NOT just a Ford problem.


REVIEW: Cleaning of intake valves with BMW walnut shell blasting tool

More info. Ask An Engineer: GDI Problems In A Nutshell - The Truth About Cars

Good read. I was wondering if there were any other reloaders out there that were thinking they could follow up with corn cob media for a final polish. Yeah, it went through my mind.

[Setec Astronomy]

3. Tempos and Taurus` with rubber bushing outer tie rod ends that failed in about 20k.

GM seems to have had the same problem with Grand Prix/Lacrosse, ridiculous. I wonder if it`s the same supplier?

I guess that`s a consequence of GM not being the company they were, they used to make virtually everything that went in the car, unlike Ford and Chrysler (not sure if any of the imports were as heavily integrated as GM).

GM had Harrison Radiator that made the radiators, heater cores, and A/C condensers, Packard Wiring, Guide Headlight, Rochester Carburetor, AC Delco, Saginaw Steering...you opened the hood and everything was made by GM. Now they most of them are gone or sold off, and you can have an ignition switch, airbag, tie rod end, etc. that`s sold to every car maker on the planet.

I`m just saying things are different now, global economy, blah blah blah, and instead of a recall being isolated to one company, it could be all of them.

Sorry for the interruption, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Setec Astronomy]

Here is a link to more about this like I said it is NOT just a Ford problem. More info. Ask An Engineer: GDI Problems In A Nutshell - The Truth About Cars

Oh...this came up in another thread here or on AGO and I couldn`t for the life of me figure out how intake air was causing carbon deposits on the intake valve...now I get it--the PCV is going into the manifold so that`s the hydrocarbon source.

Sounds like ultimately there is going to be coalescing filter in the PCV system that will have to be changed periodically. Sheesh, remember when we used to change PCV valves on cars as a routine maintenance? I haven`t changed a PCV valve in like forever. I remember wearing out the intake manifold grommet in one car I had for a long time...ha ha the parts I used to ask for at the dealer for that car...I used to get the funniest looks/comments from the parts guy--the best was when I had the trans swapped and the yo-yo`s at the trans shop didn`t take an exhaust bracket off the old trans that attached to the catalyst and my exhaust was moving around...and he said "now how would you break something like that??" like my purpose in life was to make him order weird parts that he had never ordered before.

Am I still talking? Sorry.

[Swanicyouth]

The real issue is in the inherent design of DI engines. I don`t believe it`s a PCV issue.

The fuel is not hitting the intake valve - but being sprayed right into the chamber. Therefore, no fuel additives/detergents/cleaners - or the fuel itself is unable to clean the valve. This is why additives to the fuel can not fix this. Heat from hotter running turbos also exacerbate the deposit situation.

Fixes like meth injection, adding another injector to the intake, catch cans, and PCV re-designs are just Band Aids to the issue.

This is one of the main reasons I`m driving around in the last i6 normally aspirated M car.

[Setec Astronomy]

The real issue is in the inherent design of DI engines. I don`t believe it`s a PCV issue.

The fuel is not hitting the intake valve - but being sprayed right into the chamber. Therefore, no fuel additives/detergents/cleaners - or the fuel itself is unable to clean the valve.

Ok, so there`s nothing to clean the valve...without the PCV products being dumped in there, there`s also nothing to get the valve dirty, just filtered air...air doesn`t break down and cause deposits. To get carbon deposits, you need carbon. Not much carbon in air (a little CO2, which doesn`t break down at intake temperatures), but plenty of carbon in the hydrocarbons that make up PCV scavenge (motor oil, gasoline).

[Swanicyouth]

Me thinks the carbon is getting on there when the valve opens from whatever is left in the combustion chamber.

I`m thinking if PCV was the answer one of the engineering dudes would have developed a new intake or PVC system to fix the issue.

[Setec Astronomy]

Me thinks the carbon is getting on there when the valve opens from whatever is left in the combustion chamber.

I`m thinking if PCV was the answer one of the engineering dudes would have developed a new intake or PVC system to fix the issue.

Yeah, but the valve should only be opening on intake stroke--nothing should be going back the other way--sure maybe there`s some overlap, but...

In this article linked earlier: Ask An Engineer: GDI Problems In A Nutshell - The Truth About Cars

It says: "Due to modern unburned hydrocarbon (UHC) regulations, vapors from the crankcase are usually vented into the intake stream in order to prevent oil droplets from escaping through the exhaust. In a port injection engine, these droplets are ‘washed off’ the neck of the intake valve by a relatively constant stream of gasoline droplets. In a GDI engine, the gasoline doesn’t touch intake side of the valve. As a result, the droplets have a tendency to bake onto the valve and significantly reduce performance."

And: "Manufacturers have added systems to capture these oil droplets and particulates, but no system is 100% effective."

Hence my conclusion/understanding that it`s the PCV requirements that are leading to the deposits and that filtration of the PCV vapors is/will be a method to combat this. I`m thinking to be effective it`s going to be an expensive filter and something that may have to be changed pretty often, like every oil change.

[black bart]

Yeah, but the valve should only be opening on intake stroke--nothing should be going back the other way--sure maybe there`s some overlap, but...

In this article linked earlier: Ask An Engineer: GDI Problems In A Nutshell - The Truth About Cars

It says: "Due to modern unburned hydrocarbon (UHC) regulations, vapors from the crankcase are usually vented into the intake stream in order to prevent oil droplets from escaping through the exhaust. In a port injection engine, these droplets are ‘washed off’ the neck of the intake valve by a relatively constant stream of gasoline droplets. In a GDI engine, the gasoline doesn’t touch intake side of the valve. As a result, the droplets have a tendency to bake onto the valve and significantly reduce performance."

And: "Manufacturers have added systems to capture these oil droplets and particulates, but no system is 100% effective."

Hence my conclusion/understanding that it`s the PCV requirements that are leading to the deposits and that filtration of the PCV vapors is/will be a method to combat this. I`m thinking to be effective it`s going to be an expensive filter and something that may have to be changed pretty often, like every oil change.

I`m glad I do not own one of these engines BUT IF I had one every 10,000 miles I would buy a can of cleaner and run it through the intake system to clean it. No more than I drive anymore that would be once every 2 years NO big deal for the advantages of the GDI engine.
They claim better torque and better fuel economy but in the near futue they will come up with a better solution.

[Stokdgs]

Interestingly enough, BMW has had for years a more complicated PCV system that takes the oil droplets out and sends them to the dispstick tube to get back to the oil pan..

Now, since the (actually been around for several years), move of more manufacturers to Direct Injection, we can only hope the - are they REALLY Engineers - of our vehicles here in the USA will noodle this out, like the Germans did what - over a decade ago - to separate the oil from the crankcase ventilation system better than we have ever even had a dream about..
Dan F

[black bart]

Interestingly enough, BMW has had for years a more complicated PCV system that takes the oil droplets out and sends them to the dispstick tube to get back to the oil pan..

Now, since the (actually been around for several years), move of more manufacturers to Direct Injection, we can only hope the - are they REALLY Engineers - of our vehicles here in the USA will noodle this out, like the Germans did what - over a decade ago - to separate the oil from the crankcase ventilation system better than we have ever even had a dream about..
Dan F

You are correct and it is not really that hard.
I had a serous oil blowing problem on my Corvette with very high Boost.
It took some rather clever engineered pieces but I cured it.
No reason the engineers for major manufactures can`t cure this.

[Ronkh]

I`m glad I do not own one of these engines BUT IF I had one every 10,000 miles I would buy a can of cleaner and run it through the intake system to clean it. No more than I drive anymore that would be once every 2 years NO big deal for the advantages of the GDI engine.
They claim better torque and better fuel economy but in the near futue they will come up with a better solution.

On a different forum, they are showing the valves and stems crapping up due to gdi since fuel doesn`t wash the valves.

Guess it`s gonna be a trade off, crapped up valves instead of clogged injectors.

[black bart]

While we are blasting engineers I will relate a story about what happened to me one morning.
I took a load to Detroit it was to deliver at 8am and I was early so I stopped at a truck stop near Dearborn. I sit down next to a guy at the counter, He had a shirt that had FORD on it so I ask what he did at Ford and he said he was an engineer.
I had just bought a new F250 4x4 and I had done modifications to the engine transmission suspension and steering.
So I start telling him how the steering sucked and how I had cured it.
He understood what I had done and how it would affect the steering and he ask me if I would like a job with Ford.
I ask what doing he said work in engineering we could use a man like you.
I said I never had any schooling in auto engineering he said we could use you I can get you on. I replied no thanks I will stick with what I know best.
I really do believe he was serious.

[Nizmo]

Just needs the good ol` Italian tune-up every once in a while. Your average Joe doesn`t drive spirited enough to get the engine/oil temps hot enough. Heck, even I have problems in the winter with condensation buildup on my short work commute. A good upper RPM (I`m talkin a good 15-20 min constantly) run does wonders...


That said, I`ll stick with my antique design Inline-5, OHV GM V6, and Modular Ford...

[Stokdgs]

black bart ---

Sounds like you have a great INNOVATIVE MIND going on there - this is so great !!!!
This is great to hear that you figured out what didnt work and most importantly, made and/or improved a known process..

And with that, you must have figured out how NOT to get discouraged enough to give up... This IS a big deal...

I am so proud of you !!!

All too often, some of the disciplines people spend 6+ years in getting educated in, dont always get to that "I" word that also encompasses INVENTORS...

When you think about great Inventors, I can remember one story of Thomas Edison, who had invented records and film, built a big plant to manufacture those inventions, and all was going great - until one night there was a huge fire in this plant, so hot and big that several Fire Engine Companies could not even begin to put it out..

His Daughter went out to the fire in the middle of the night, worried that her Dad was possibly injured, etc., and instead, when she got there, she saw him running towards her very excited..

He told her he was ok and to go get her Mother and Grandmother and bring them back..
He said they needed to see this - because they would never ever see a fire this big again in their lifetime !

The next morning, before the fire had even quit burning, he gathered his employees of this plant, and started assigning them things to do so they could Rebuild !!!
He assigned some to go hire all the Machine Shops in Erie, etc., go get huge earth movers, etc., and then at the end, he said - "Anyone know where we can get some money? "

This is the kind of people we need for so many things NOW !!!!

Pretty much all our Ancestors were these people - when something broke, they figured out how to fix and or improve it !!!

Lets all go Forward - not Backward...
Dan F

[black bart]

black bart ---

Sounds like you have a great INNOVATIVE MIND going on there - this is so great !!!!
This is great to hear that you figured out what didnt work and most importantly, made and/or improved a known process..

And with that, you must have figured out how NOT to get discouraged enough to give up... This IS a big deal...

I am so proud of you !!!

All too often, some of the disciplines people spend 6+ years in getting educated in, dont always get to that "I" word that also encompasses INVENTORS...

When you think about great Inventors, I can remember one story of Thomas Edison, who had invented records and film, built a big plant to manufacture those inventions, and all was going great - until one night there was a huge fire in this plant, so hot and big that several Fire Engine Companies could not even begin to put it out..

His Daughter went out to the fire in the middle of the night, worried that her Dad was possibly injured, etc., and instead, when she got there, she saw him running towards her very excited..

He told her he was ok and to go get her Mother and Grandmother and bring them back..
He said they needed to see this - because they would never ever see a fire this big again in their lifetime !

The next morning, before the fire had even quit burning, he gathered his employees of this plant, and started assigning them things to do so they could Rebuild !!!
He assigned some to go hire all the Machine Shops in Erie, etc., go get huge earth movers, etc., and then at the end, he said - "Anyone know where we can get some money? "

This is the kind of people we need for so many things NOW !!!!

Pretty much all our Ancestors were these people - when something broke, they figured out how to fix and or improve it !!!

Lets all go Forward - not Backward...
Dan F

I have built several things that I could not buy.
Back in 1980 I installed a air conditioner heat pump but it was air to air back then you could not get a geothermal heat pump.
The heat pump did not work below around 20 degrees so it had a built in thermostat and it would switch to built in electric heat strips.

Instead of running the heat strips I wanted to use my furnace when it was too cold for the heat pump.
I checked with all the heating suppliers and no one made anything to do that so I went to a electronic supply and bought what I needed and built one.
That was 1980 and it is still working today.
About 25 years after I built mine carrier built one.
See all I was thinking about was making what I wanted and never give a thought to the fact that someone else would want one. If I had got a patient I could have made a lot of money but I have done that on several things I just build what I can`t buy and never give a thought about someone else wanting one.