Help: Auto dealer messed up the car they sold me

[bearsnob]

Newbie here, hoping to get some help from the experts.



Back in November I bought an `05 Scion Xb from the local Honda Dealership. The glass and the paint had a lot of hard water spots and, because the dealer was telling me these were easy to remove, I told them I`d buy it if they agreed to remove them. They did. I bought it and then took it in for the detailing to be done. Three times they told me the spots were removed when they were not. They also tried telling me that the spots on the glass were the hard ones to remove and that the spots on the paint would come off when I waxed it. It was going from bad to worse, so I made my first good decision and consulted a professional detailer who turned out to be a really great guy. For free, he showed me what was wrong and demonstrated how the spots are supposed to be removed. I slipped him a few bucks as a thank you and went back to the dealer not quite so green. I showed them what I expected to have happen with both the paint and the glass (the small areas the detailer had done). I then asked to speak with their detailer and only gave him the keys when he passed my little quiz about how the work would be done.



A couple hours later I got a call. The car was done and, according to them, it looked great. I figured something was up because it was done too fast. When I got there, they were all excited to tell me that they had discovered a miracle product called Whink Rust Stain Remover. They had used it first on the windows, and then on the paint, and were thrilled with the results. Something was wrong with three of my windows and so I took the car to my detailer. He looked at them and said, "Oh oh." That didn`t sound good. He went on to explain that they left the acid on too long and etched the windows. Of course, when I told him about the rust remover he had a few choice words...



So fast forward to today. I got them to replaced the windows and detail the car the correct way. They did a pretty good job on the paint. But some of the non-etched side windows now have fine scratches in them either from using the wrong grade of steel wool or from rubbing too hard with the correct grade. Its not horrible. My big concern right now is the paint. I consulted with a bunch of people, including the Whink corporation, and they all tell me the hydroflouric acid (HF) in the rust remover damages paint. I then went and proved this for myself by putting some rust remover on a gas cap door that I bought at the local scrap yard. The results were interesting. I left the clear coat on most of the paint and then I scraped a small section down to the primer to simulate what would happen in areas of the paint where there were rock chips. The clear coat area bubbled, just like the Whink folks told me would happen. The paint on the surface was still nice and shiny but there were about six small bubbles per square inch. So the paint was lifting even though there was no apparent damage to the clear coat. The area that I had scratched was a different story. The paint around that area was pealing and the undercoat looked damaged.



The paint on my car looks good right now, but the consensus from the experts I`ve consulted is that it is still damaged. One auto body shop owner put it this way, "If anyone tells you they know how long that paint will last, don`t believe them. It could last six months or six years depending on how long they left the HF on the paint." The dealer told me it was left on the car for a considerable length of time while they rubbed and rubbed to try to remove the hard water spots.



So I`m about ready to go back to the dealer to work out the paint issue. I`ve got some ideas of how to proceed, but I would be very interested in what the experts here think about this whole situation. I know what the dealer`s attitude is going to be because they`ve already expressed that by stating that if the paint looks good, then it is good. I am hoping someone here actually has some knowledge about the effects of HF on paint. But, either way, any and all comments on this situation will be both welcome and greatly appreciated.

[Nth Degree]

I`m sure Ron (Grumpy) will have the most extensive knowledge about the tech side. I would show them everything you have discovered about the product and perhaps even redo your experiment in front of the manager. (Ask him if you can do the test on one of the new cars on the lot) If I were you I would tell them you would like to have the car repainted by a shop of your choosing and they will pay for the cost. As an alternative I would offer to give them back the vehicle in exchange for another that is roughly the same price plus the approximate value of a paint job. Go get a few quotes for a full paint job that include the complete removal of all trim.



Not sure if you have one where you are, but many cities have a troubleshooter at one of the local news chanels. Contact them if you can find them. That is the sort of publicity a dealership doesn`t want.

[David Fermani]

I hope Ron sees this because I`m certain he will be able to offer real world advice. Personally, this whole thing sounds wrong from the start. I`d have them buy the car back or get an Attorney to file suit. It`s really pathetic how bad a dealer can be that don`t have a clue on doing things right.

[mikenap]

So fast forward to today. I got them to replaced the windows and detail the car the correct way. They did a pretty good job on the paint. But some of the non-etched side windows now have fine scratches in them either from using the wrong grade of steel wool or from rubbing too hard with the correct grade. Its not horrible. My big concern right now is the paint. I consulted with a bunch of people, including the Whink corporation, and they all tell me the hydroflouric acid (HF) in the rust remover damages paint. I then went and proved this for myself by putting some rust remover on a gas cap door that I bought at the local scrap yard. The results were interesting. I left the clear coat on most of the paint and then I scraped a small section down to the primer to simulate what would happen in areas of the paint where there were rock chips. The clear coat area bubbled, just like the Whink folks told me would happen. The paint on the surface was still nice and shiny but there were about six small bubbles per square inch. So the paint was lifting even though there was no apparent damage to the clear coat. The area that I had scratched was a different story. The paint around that area was pealing and the undercoat looked damaged.

If you got this info from Whink over the phone, contact them again and get it in writing or through email. If they are clearly stating their product isn`t paint safe, this dealership is sunk.

[Ron Ketcham]

Hydrofluric acid destroys the resin system of the paint, be it the clear or a single stage.

Oxalic acid, in strong enough concentrations, will do the same.

In the case of both acids, damage may occur, just a matter of time before it rears it`s ugly head.

I have never heard of the product or brand you mentioned.

I gather it is a local area bath-tubber chemical company.

You have basically a 7 year old vehicle.

Toyota only warrantys for one year and that is against "manufacturering defects`.

After reading your post, the dealer`s reaction, poor attempts to make the paint correct, doing part of the glass correct and damaging the other glass, etc.

Request them to provide any approvals for use of the Whink product from any recognized vehicle manufacturer stating that is approved by them.

Go back and tell the "dealer principle" or the "manager", not the used car manager, but as high as you can go, that you if the vehicle is not bought back, you will be left with little choice but to take legal action.

Be sure to have as much as you can of any written documents, repair orders, etc available, and make sincere written notes of all conversations with dealership personel.

Do not get personally threatening, just present the facts to the top person at the dealership.

Do find the local contact at the BBB and have that name handy, as well as any local TV shows that have a consumer advocate on their staff, be ready to mention them as well.

Dealers hate bad publicity, especially any that gets a lot of media.

If this doesn`t work, the only recourse you have is to consult a good attorney or live with the car as it is.

Sorry,

Grumpy

[David Fermani]

bearsnob - I highly suggest heeding Ron`s statement about this issue. He`s one of the most reputable professionals in the industry on this concern and has worked/consulted several vehicle and paint manufacturers on these exact things.



Please keep us in the loop and update us on this problem as you have more info. Good luck.

[bearsnob]

If you got this info from Whink over the phone, contact them again and get it in writing or through email. If they are clearly stating their product isn`t paint safe, this dealership is sunk.

I did that the other day and got a reply that backs me up. It was a tad CYA so I wrote back and tried to get something a little more descriptive. Still waiting on that reply. When I talked with them on the phone, they related stories about people who had done amazing damage to their vehicles using this product. One guy managed to etch all 10 windows in his houseboat to the point that he could not see through them. They said that happened in less than 10 minutes. I`m trying to get a story like that for the paint.



I know this looks bad for them, but do people here think I should be trying to get a new paint job when there appears to be life left in the paint its got. I am guestimating that this paint will probably start to peal in about two years and that will probably happen up front where the rock chips are. The car is seven years old. How long does factory paint usually last these days? I want to make sure I am being reasonable in case this ever ends up in front of a judge.

[Ron Ketcham]

For the vehicle to be refinished, properly, the entire vehicle will need to be taken down to the e-coat and then the primers, base and clear applied.

Any trim that was damaged by the product and dealership should be replaced as well.

The cost of doing this would be between $3,000 and $4000.

Which is why a buy back by the dealer would be his best out and take it to auction.

Factory paint, in most cases, if not exposed to high concentrates of acid rain, over buffing, or heavy industrial deposits is designed to normally last 10 years.

Grumpy

[bearsnob]

Ron, thank you for the excellent info. I`m going to read it over again tonight when I have more time. For now, this rust remover is sold all over the country. The dealer bought theirs at Ace hardware. Whink told me that when federal regulations went into place about 30 years ago concerning HF concentrations in consumer products, they had to request a waver because their then 20 year old business would have been destroyed. They got the waver and, as far as they know, their product has the highest concentration of HF of any consumer product on the market. That is why it is pretty much only approved for two surfaces.



Btw, HF was used in the early days of the touchless car washes as a pre-soak. People loved the fact that their cars would come out looking showroom new until the windows started to cloud and the paint started failing early. Now almost every touchless car wash in the country that has an internet presence states right up front that they are HF-free.

[Ron Ketcham]

So they bought a product to use on your vehicle, and used it, that is not approved for the usage on a vehicle?

Not an automotive tested and approved product?

That`s a legal opening.

I am well aware of what car washes used to use, and the HF is what basically put Blue Coral commercial division under.

Spent many hours with paint engineers at Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mazda, etc back in those days investigating "customer paint concerns" that were mostly tracked back to the use of HF at car washes on vehicles.

The car companies would not honor such damage as it is stated in all owners manuals to avoid the use of harsh chemical cleaners, etc on their vehicles.

Grumpy

[bearsnob]

Request them to provide any approvals for use of the Whink product from any recognized vehicle manufacturer stating that is approved by them.

Go back and tell the "dealer principle" or the "manager", not the used car manager, but as high as you can go, that you if the vehicle is not bought back, you will be left with little choice but to take legal action.

The first part of this is exactly how I was leaning. I have an ever growing stack of information, along with my tests on the paint, the original etched windows, an email from Whink, the new info from Grumpy that I have tried unsuccessfully to find up to now, the detailer I consulted who looked at the car about five times while the process was unfolding, etc. My thinking is that they don`t need to know how strong my case is. When I go in to discuss this issue, I will just state that I have proof that the paint was damaged and, when they ask to see that proof, I`ll nicely tell them that the ball has shifted to their court. If they want to try to prove that the paint was not damaged, they are welcome to try but I don`t think it is possible based on what I now know. I figure there is no sense in showing my cards at this point because that will give their legal department too much info to work with.



The issue of determining damages is what gets tricky. If my car was parked at walmart and a truck driver accidentally sprayed it with something that immediately destroyed the paint, I am sure I would get a new paint job even if the factory paint was 10 years old. In an accident, the accidental damage is fixed as long as the fix doesn`t cost more than the car`s value. But I am really not sure if this situation is the same or different in the eyes of the law. Until now, I was leaning towards asking them to refund their profit to me (about $2,000). That would get me at least half way to the new paint job when needed and hopefully keep us out of court because I would suggest this as a way to avoid differing opinions about the paint. This just seems like the type of thing that ends up in court because even if both parties are being reasonable, there is so much room to disagree because no one can say for sure when this paint will fail. So I would point out that they have a very unhappy customer because of the foolish things they have done and then ask them if they really think they deserve to make a profit under those circumstances.



This was my "clever" way to try to bring this to an end without a long, drawn out process. But now I am thinking that maybe it was not so clever because I had not thought of a buy back. Grumpy, if I am understanding what you are saying, this is the best solution because this is the normal way that the auto sales industry handles situations like this. Am I on the right track? If so, it does make sense to try to deal with this situation in a way they understand. The strategy I had come up with might only confuse them. That said, I hate to lose this car because it is so mechanically sound. While most used Xb`s will be in great mechanical shape, I doubt I will find one that has been babied as much this one has. So if I go the buy back route, I will be biting the bullet to do so. But things have been at a point for a long time where there is really no good solution because of how much they messed everything up.



Grumpy, any chance you can point me in the direction of some written info about the effects of HF on automotive paint? I have searched and searched and have not found any detailed info. Your comment about its effects on the resin system is the only info I have about what the HF is actually doing. Part of the difficulty in researching this is that almost every search I do yields mostly websites from a slew of touchless car washes. Lots of statements about HF damaging paint, but pretty much no description of how the damage occurs.



Wow, I`ve got to say I struck gold in finding this forum. Thank you everyone for all your help.

[Lonnie]

bearnob:

My advice is IF the car dealer and its upper management balk at your suggestion of a buy-back, it may be in your best interest to retain a lawyer. While the legal professional`s fee may seem steep, this may be recouped in the settlement negotiated by the lawyer. As stated in previous posts, most legitimate businesses want to avoid bad media attention and a bad reputation within the local community.



That being said, in most cases that end up in court, the judge will lean with the business. Why?? Because legitimate businesses are an essential part of any local economy. You are probably not going to have a jury of your peers decide this case initially, unless you appeal and take it to a higher court. Also, many judges are former lawyers themselves. When you come in to a court room without proper legal representing you (IE, you are representing yourself), a judge may view you as "bypassing" one of their own. Despite the judicial system supposedly being blind, it does take care of its own fraternity of lawyers. You just stand a much better chance of receiving some type of compensation and, hence, justice in your case or ANY case.



How do I know this? A municiple judge told this to former co-worker`s friend while golfing with him. The co-worker relayed his story of how this particular judge ruled a 50% negligence in a case my former co-worker brought to suit in court against an asphalt paving company that did a bad job on his driveway. He had all the documentation and proof and pictures of the bad job and thought he would win, hands down, representing himself. He found out what justice really is all about.

[bearsnob]

Lonnie,



Thanks for the helpful input. I really hate it when things get this close to going to court. So far in life, I must be fortunate in that I have never actually ended up in court. I find that if I get my ducks in a row, and am able to tactfully point out the other guy`s problem, they usually back down. I sure wish our local news did consumer advocacy because this seems like a perfect situation for that. I`d bet they would back down in a heart beat if I even made a move in that direction. So my plan at this point is to do as grumpy suggested and start with the highest level guy who will talk to me. If that doesn`t work, this is a Lithia dealership and so I can then take it to the corporate level. If that doesn`t work, the BBB would be next. Talk about the courts being biased towards businesses, the BBB is really biased but I find that many business will back down if you make a good case to the BBB. That said, businesses that get a lot of BBB complaints definitely know how to play the game and usually win at this level.



I guess, just personally, I am also biased in the favor of businesses. We live in a society that uses courts way too much imo. But I`m not adverse to going to court either. If I do everything within my power to avoid court, and then find myself there anyway, hopefully that will cancel out any bias the judge might have. In this situation, I believe this business is definitely in a bad place legally. They have already decided on their own that the windows they damaged could not be fixed and so they made the decision to replace them. But, prior to that, I believe I can prove that they knowingly tried to deceive me about the windows. One of the etched windows has scratch marks from steel wool over some of the etching. My detailer pointed this out to me. That means they knew they did something to the windows but obviously, at the time, did not know what they did. But this isn`t hard to figure out and so I think it is reasonable to conclude that they figured it out before I got there and then were hoping I would not notice. I remember asking about the windows and suggesting that they run their fingers over them so they could feel the ripples in the glass. They did and then said something like, "That`s weird. I don`t know what that is. I`ve never seen anything like it." I could tell they were lying and that is why I went directly from there to my detailer to find out what was going on. So, rather than stepping up to the plate, they intentionally tried to get away with what they did. But worse than that, you would think that after causing that type of damage to glass, the last thing they would do is use the same product on the paint. I can only conclude they used it on the paint to try to get me to not notice what they had done to the windows. In other words, they were gambling with my paint to try to get out of fixing the damage they knew they had already caused. They didn`t have time to make the paint look good the right way and so they decided to use the rust remover because it was faster. Will I consult an attorney if the other steps don`t work? Yes, and without hesitation.

[Dan]

Well, good that you mentioned you haven`t toiled with the legal system, because I can tell you that once you have, you will be twice as shy about doing it again! And the dealer knows this, even the best dealer has been to court a few time. Here are a few things to ask yourself:



-What is the best possible outcome for this situation?

-Worst?



-How are you going to prove the damage, and future impact to the paint? Your and your detailer`s statements won`t get you too far.



I`d really walk up the corporate chain and try to do one of two things:



1. Get a refund on the car minus use charges for the time you had it.

2. Get a written warranty on the paint for however long you intend to keep the car.

[bearsnob]

Well, good that you mentioned you haven`t toiled with the legal system, because I can tell you that once you have, you will be twice as shy about doing it again! And the dealer knows this, even the best dealer has been to court a few time.

I think part of the reason I have been successful so far in avoiding court is that the other party eventually figures out that I am not going away until one of two things happen. They either have to convince me that I am wrong or they have to give in at a level that is acceptable to me. The crazy thing about this whole situation is that if they hadn`t done things like telling me they got all of the water spots off the windows, when it was clear the windows had not been touched, they could have easily done a so-so job and I would have probably been happy. Its is almost funny because I find myself consulting with people on an auto detailing forum when, if you could see the cars I`ve owned in my life, you would conclude that I have no interest in the subject. I remember one time when I was younger saying to a friend, "Why do you spend so much time waxing your car? I find that dirt protects the paint just fine." Now, admittedly, I`ve gotten way past that stage in my life, but I am no where near in the league of people here. Interestingly, that is changing. This car has a beautiful finish on it that they call Black Pearl. It is the first black car I have owned and it quickly became clear that black is a high maintenance color. I was concerned about that at first, but I no longer am. As I have been learning some of the tricks for keeping a car like this looking nice, I find that I am enjoying doing so. All of that started when I consulted with the detailer and I am positive it will continue on this forum. So, looking at the bright side of my situation, I am already ahead in at least one way.