Kind of in a jam here. Advice needed.

**2007TBSS** · 07-09-2010, 03:47 PM

So I have a good friend that I promised a correction for this weekend on his ~2000 Civic. He dropped it off tonight and I went ahead and got started. The problem I am having is even with a GG RO, M105, 5.5" Yellow pads, double passes of 3 (6 total) at < 1"/min I am only getting about 60% correction. I have nothing more aggressive.

The scratches are deep and the clear is hard as hell. He said the front end was repainted and I think that HOPEFULLY when I get to the factory clear, it will be a little softer. But that`s after a hood, bumper, and 2 fenders of hell.

The problem is I am only charging him $200 for a full correction and interior/exterior detail. Yes, the price is cheap, but I am still a semi-novice and he is a good friend, so I am working on the cheap while I learn.

BUT I DID promise a full correction for an agreed upon price. SO, what to do?

Explain the scratches are "fingernail" deep (which is true) and that short of sanding, this is as good as it gets?

Drop the price since the agreed upon terms were not met from my end?

Say, "hey, I got about 60% correction" and hope he`s happy with it?

Damn, I never seen anything this hard in my short career.:think:

Thoughts?

**ADetailedFinish** · 07-09-2010, 06:06 PM

if u can run your fingernail over the scratches and feel them, it`s time to repaint.. post some pics!!

**Apollo_Auto** · 07-09-2010, 06:50 PM

You may have better luck if you increase the pressure while you`re buffing. You should also tell him that since the car has been repainted, it`s not very safe to correct it any more than it has already been corrected. Also let him know that there`s no way you could have known before you started working on it so unfortunately that`s as good as it`s going to get. The price is the price, don`t back down from it! Also, next time you should prep your customer and let them know that there`s no such thing as a "full correction" because sometimes there`s not enough paint, scratches are too deep, etc. Then when you give them more than they expected they`ll be ecstatic and if scratches remain, you`re covered. Hope that helps

.

- Jesse

**2007TBSS** · 07-10-2010, 12:58 AM

I`m pressing fairly hard. Harder than usual I`d say. I tried this am to press a little harder and of course there is some progress, but still not great. I think that some of the scratches are just deeper than they appear at first. I think I need to sell my services as "steps" instead of polish or correction. That way I can say I did a 2 step correction and was only able to get about 60%. (Reasonable?)

Thanks Apollo!

Originally Posted by ADetailedFinish

if u can run your fingernail over the scratches and feel them, it`s time to repaint.. post some pics!!

Here`s a quick pic I snapped down at the corner in the sunlight. This is an honest 3 passes just as I have been doing on the rest of the car. As you can see, there are just some spots that are too deep to get with a simple polish. I guess they are more numerous that I would prefer and too numerous for me to feel like I sold him what I (mistakenly) sold as a full correction. I won`t make that mistake again.

Thanks for the input fellas.

**washburn** · 07-10-2010, 01:32 AM

I would almost bet that he is going to be happy with it and just explain the deep scratches.

Originally Posted by 2007TBSS

I`m pressing fairly hard. Harder than usual I`d say. I tried this am to press a little harder and of course there is some progress, but still not great. I think that some of the scratches are just deeper than they appear at first. I think I need to sell my services as "steps" instead of polish or correction. That way I can say I did a 2 step correction and was only able to get about 60%. (Reasonable?)

Thanks Apollo!

Here`s a quick pic I snapped down at the corner in the sunlight. This is an honest 3 passes just as I have been doing on the rest of the car. As you can see, there are just some spots that are too deep to get with a simple polish. I guess they are more numerous that I would prefer and too numerous for me to feel like I sold him what I (mistakenly) sold as a full correction. I won`t make that mistake again.

Thanks for the input fellas.

**Accumulator** · 07-10-2010, 11:47 AM

Some sorta-random thoughts follow:

-I`ve done a LOT more passes than that, sometimes with more aggressive combos (insert caveats...).

-I`d *absolutely* be using 4" pads and I`d much rather use PFW or even SurBufs than yellow foam cutting pads.

-Scratches you can feel with your nail are too deep for safe removal. Despite what I said about many aggressive passes, you should only take off maybe a third-of-a-mil worth of clear, and that`s not much.

-Repaints are always a crapshoot and you can easily have an "oops!" no matter how good you are.

-Gotta under-promise and (hopefully) over-deliver when doing somebody else`s car.

-Did I mention 4" pads? Heh heh heh...

**Lonnie** · 07-11-2010, 06:02 PM

If you are wondering about Accumulator`s suggestion for using 4" pads on Porter-Cable 7652XP (PC) or Ultimate Detailing Machine (UDM), here`s the science behind it:

PC`s and UDM`s simply do not have enough torque in the electric motor to overcome the pressure needed to generate the "polishing force" on 6" or larger pads. It bogues down and hence, slow down and it cannot generate the speed and pressure at the edges of larger pad diameters. Granted, this may sound counter-intuitive because the larger the pad diameter, the more surface speed it will generate at the edge than a small pad spinning at identical revolutions (think of it as surface feet per minute with the same motor revolutions per minute (RPMs) a.k.a, dial speed setting). However, what needs to be taken into account is the deflection (the bending) of the pad and the force (torque) the pad needs at the edge of the pad when YOU apply pressure to the buffer head to maintain that speed. Smaller pads (4") don`t deflect as much and the buffer has an easier time to maintain the speed because it requires less torque at the edge. What is obvious is that a 4" pad will not cover the same area as a 6" as fast time-wise, nor will it generate a higher edge speed. What this means is that it will take you longer in time to achieve your desired results, but it is possible if you choose:

1) the correct pad diameter and pad type (IE, foam color);

2) the correct abrasive for the correction being done;

3) the correct RPMs (dial speed settings) and the variations needed to work the abrasive;

4) the correct pressure YOU apply to the buffer head. That`s one reason why you may see those who use the PC/UDM DO NOT use the side handle, but have their hand over the spindle head.

Still think buffing with a PC is easy and anyone can do it?? It`s like anything, it takes experience and the only way to learn is to acutally do it.

**imported_Picus** · 07-11-2010, 06:34 PM

I hate chasing after RIDS with a machine; I would personally sand them, or if you are not comfortable with it, leave them alone. The "after" side there looks very reasonable for a $200 job, imo.

**2007TBSS** · 07-11-2010, 07:34 PM

Maybe I have a bit of a perfectionist streak in me. Now that I look back, I guess it wasn`t that bad, I was just a little disappointed in it`s less-than-perfect-ness.

Here`s a thread in Click and Brag. I may still look into the 4" pads though. I can see the benefit of doing that. Also, I think it would help to focus the mind of an impatient polisher like me.

http://www.autopia.org/forum/click-b...ml#post1396501

**2007TBSS** · 07-11-2010, 07:35 PM

Do the 4" pads use the same counter balance or do I need to order a new one?

**Lonnie** · 07-12-2010, 08:15 AM

I think the factory-installed counterbalance that comes with the PC is for 5.5" or smaller diameter. You can use a 6" pad on a PC with the factory-installed counterbalance, but the vibrations will shake your hands, wrist, and forearms excessively and it will wear you out if you do it for any length of time (say, more than an hour). If you do use a 6" pad for, say, applying waxes or last-step products (LPSs), you may want to invest in a counterbalance designed for 6" (or larger) pads. The obvious drawback is that you need to switch out the counterbalance for the factory-installed one IF you decide to have a much smoother wax application with 6" pads. Most the time you are at slower speeds when applying LSPs with a PC (Speed dial setting at 3-3.5), and it doesn`t take that long, so you may not want to go through the hassle of buying and then installing a counterbalance for 6" or larger pads.

However, if you want to use the 6" or larger pads for correction/polishing work because of the investment you`ve made in them, it would be wise to buy and install a 6" counterbalance and save your hands, wrist, and forearms from PC vibration-induced stress and/or possible injury.

**Accumulator** · 07-12-2010, 12:18 PM

Lonnie- Depends on which PC; one of mine came with the 5" weight and the other came with the 6" one. Other than the weight (and the model number), the two machines are identical.

2007TBSS- I use the same (6") weight with all sizes of pads, including 3.5-4". I`d probably just use whatever weight you already have. This isn`t somethign that really matters all that much; some people say it doesn`t matter at all and that they can`t tell any diff between the two weights (I won`t go that far and I do prefer the 6" one).